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College basketball costs and revenues

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JoeD
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College basketball costs and revenues

Post by JoeD » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:15 am

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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by dropkick » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:05 am

Interesting stuff. If I’m reading this correctly, we are the only OVC school that turns a significant profit with our men’s program as we netted almost 1.2 million. Also interesting that we would be next to last in expenses compared to other MVC schools, but are second from the top in the OVC behind Belmont. We would at least have room for growth in the expense column with the profit we are now showing. I have to believe our revenue would
also increase with the move to the MVC.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by smidge34 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:21 am

I almost linked this here earlier. Check out the expense side, or what programs spend on the ball team and then look at the right-revenue side. You have to go up just past Middle Tennessee, to the west coast conference teams, CUSA, mountain west, west coast, a10 etc. to match our revenue? I’m wondering is that’s a typo or if our ticket sales vault our revenues into that kinda loot for real?
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by dropkick » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:32 am

That is a fair question as I have have no way to prove, unless someone on the board is really, really, really on the inside (ie racerpower) and is willing to share that info
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by SwedeDRC » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:59 pm

This data is great to know and I agree that a move to the MVC would most likely improve the revenue offsetting the higher travel costs.

The problem is the MVC seems lukewarm, at best, on adding us or anyone else for that matter...

Making the case that we would add revenue to the member MVC schools basketball programs home games is a theoretical argument and unlikely to sway anyone. The schools in favor of adding us would think positively and promote the prospect. The others would say such thinking is just an unproven notion and nothing to make a big change on. The big change being adding a serious contender for the conference title and shrinking the payoff to each school a little by adding another player.

Sadly we need something else to get the MVC show back on the road...lol Anybody have any more ideas?... :scratch:
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by racerpower » Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:15 pm

smidge34 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:21 am
I almost linked this here earlier. Check out the expense side, or what programs spend on the ball team and then look at the right-revenue side. You have to go up just past Middle Tennessee, to the west coast conference teams, CUSA, mountain west, west coast, a10 etc. to match our revenue? I’m wondering is that’s a typo or if our ticket sales vault our revenues into that kinda loot for real?


Our basketball and football bring in dam good money.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by Dan T » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:09 pm

Any way you look at it, football is a large financial loss at MSU.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by murraygrad05 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:47 pm

racerpower wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:15 pm
smidge34 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:21 am
I almost linked this here earlier. Check out the expense side, or what programs spend on the ball team and then look at the right-revenue side. You have to go up just past Middle Tennessee, to the west coast conference teams, CUSA, mountain west, west coast, a10 etc. to match our revenue? I’m wondering is that’s a typo or if our ticket sales vault our revenues into that kinda loot for real?


Our basketball and football bring in dam good money.
Without the butt whoopin money game we play football is a total and absolute bust. A good example of this is last year they could not give tickets away for games. The 4 games for $10 or whatever deal it was and you'd see maybe 1,000 people in a 16,000 seat stadium.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by speck » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:43 pm

But it could make a lot of money if the price of used concrete skyrockets. :shrug:
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by evvracerfan » Mon Jun 11, 2018 7:48 pm

murraygrad05 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:47 pm
racerpower wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:15 pm
smidge34 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:21 am
I almost linked this here earlier. Check out the expense side, or what programs spend on the ball team and then look at the right-revenue side. You have to go up just past Middle Tennessee, to the west coast conference teams, CUSA, mountain west, west coast, a10 etc. to match our revenue? I’m wondering is that’s a typo or if our ticket sales vault our revenues into that kinda loot for real?


Our basketball and football bring in dam good money.
Without the butt whoopin money game we play football is a total and absolute bust. A good example of this is last year they could not give tickets away for games. The 4 games for $10 or whatever deal it was and you'd see maybe 1,000 people in a 16,000 seat stadium.
The Racer offense was as offensive as it could be last year. We were lucky to draw anybody to the last several home games - regardless of cost. I'm reminded of Tampa Bay Buccaneers coach John McKay who was asked about the execution of his team's offense, when he replied "I'm in favor of it." We better see some decent progress this fall or we'll be searching for another coach IMO.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by A_1985_grad » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:10 pm

SwedeDRC wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:59 pm
This data is great to know and I agree that a move to the MVC would most likely improve the revenue offsetting the higher travel costs.

The problem is the MVC seems lukewarm, at best, on adding us or anyone else for that matter...

Making the case that we would add revenue to the member MVC schools basketball programs home games is a theoretical argument and unlikely to sway anyone. The schools in favor of adding us would think positively and promote the prospect. The others would say such thinking is just an unproven notion and nothing to make a big change on. The big change being adding a serious contender for the conference title and shrinking the payoff to each school a little by adding another player.

Sadly we need something else to get the MVC show back on the road...lol Anybody have any more ideas?... :scratch:
I would imagine the only way we get an invite to the MVC at this point is only if one of its current teams bolts (Loyola?). Of course, that would be a further watered-down MVC when that happens. Wish we had other options but they know and we know that we don't.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by racerpower » Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:33 pm

murraygrad05 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:47 pm
racerpower wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:15 pm
smidge34 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:21 am
I almost linked this here earlier. Check out the expense side, or what programs spend on the ball team and then look at the right-revenue side. You have to go up just past Middle Tennessee, to the west coast conference teams, CUSA, mountain west, west coast, a10 etc. to match our revenue? I’m wondering is that’s a typo or if our ticket sales vault our revenues into that kinda loot for real?


Our basketball and football bring in dam good money.
Without the butt whoopin money game we play football is a total and absolute bust. A good example of this is last year they could not give tickets away for games. The 4 games for $10 or whatever deal it was and you'd see maybe 1,000 people in a 16,000 seat stadium.



Hey dipshit Murray has an average of over 5000 last year.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by smidge34 » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:46 pm

The numbers I was told to fund the football program minus the facilities and scholarships was so little as to be almost negligible to be honest, factoring in NCAA $$ just for being D1 (heard $100K, if anybody can confirm?) and money games.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by A_1985_grad » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:50 pm

smidge34 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:46 pm
The numbers I was told to fund the football program minus the facilities and scholarships was so little as to be almost negligible to be honest, factoring in NCAA $$ just for being D1 (heard $100K, if anybody can confirm?) and money games.
Sounds right since Peay found no advantage playing non-scholly for a few years.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by Dan T » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:06 am

racerpower wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:33 pm
murraygrad05 wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:47 pm
racerpower wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:15 pm




Our basketball and football bring in dam good money.
Without the butt whoopin money game we play football is a total and absolute bust. A good example of this is last year they could not give tickets away for games. The 4 games for $10 or whatever deal it was and you'd see maybe 1,000 people in a 16,000 seat stadium.



Hey dipshit Murray has an average of over 5000 last year.
I don't really care what they listed as attendance. I'm interested in how many people actually sit in the seats. You probably don't want to know what I think of cursing on the Racer forums.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by Kentucky Lake » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:50 am

You got to put a good product on the field if you want people to show up. It's really incredible that we have as much support as we do considering the 15 years of non-competitive FCS football played at Murray State.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by racerpower » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:09 pm

But but but it,s only 1000 that come to each football game right Dan T. :finger:
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by Dan T » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:19 pm

racerpower wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:09 pm
But but but it,s only 1000 that come to each football game right Dan T. :finger:
Power, I don't know what's driving your behavior, so I'll just not comment further.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by MarshallRacer » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:21 pm

Mark Adams had an amazing (and long) facebook post about revenue/expenditures and NCAA at large bids. (TLDR: spend $2.5 mil or more on basketball or forget about an at large or much tourney success.)
NCAA Men’s Basketball: How is the status quo working for you?
By Mark Adams, President, ENTHUSIADAMS™ Date: June 12, 2018
Since 2010 there have been seven times that teams from conferences outside the top six spending conferences (ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, Big East, Pac 12, SEC) have reached the Final Four. One won the National Championship (UConn, 2014) and two others made the championship game (Butler, 2011 and Gonzaga, 2017)
Final Four Participants Since 2010:
• 2009-10: Butler $2.3M Budget (Horizon League)
• 2010-11: Butler $2.8M Budget (Horizon League)
• 2012-13: Wichita State: $3.1M Budget (Missouri Valley)
• 2012-13: VCU $2.7M Budget (Colonial Athletic Association)
• 2013-14: UConn $8.6M Budget (American Athletic Conference)
• 2016-17: Gonzaga $8.87M Budget (West Coast Conference)
• 2017-18: Loyola $2.8M Budget (Missouri Valley Conference)

Notes:
• Butler is now in the Big East and has raised their men’s basketball budget to $5.5M in the 2016-17 fiscal year as reported by the US Department of Education.
• Wichita State moved to the American Athletic Conference and boasts a $6.4M budget for 2016-17 fiscal year as reported by the US Department of Education.
• VCU moved to the Atlantic 10 and now has a $6.1M budget for 2016-17 fiscal year as reported by the US Department of Education.
With the exceptions of UConn and Gonzaga, the five other teams to get to the Final Four spent between $2.3M-$3.1M on their men’s basketball programs during that season as per the US Department of Education.

It is also useful to look at the at-large bids awarded by the NCAA Tournament Selection Committee to teams outside of the six highest spending leagues. Listed below are the budgets for teams over the last four seasons as follows: (Budgets listed as per US Department of Education)
2018 NCAA At Large Bids:
• Cincinnati ($6.97M)
• Houston ($4.75M)
• Wichita State ($6.4M)
• Nevada ($5.9M)
• Rhode Island ($4.7M))
• Saint Bonaventure ($3.45M)
2017 NCAA At Large Bids:
• Saint Mary’s ($3.0M)
• Cincinnati ($7.4M)
• Dayton ($5.0M)
• VCU ($5.4M)
2016 NCAA At Large Bids:
• Temple ($5.9M)
• Wichita State ($6.9M)
• Cincinnati ($7.4M)
• VCU ($5.4M)
• Tulsa ($6.2M)
• Dayton ($5M)
2015 NCAA At Large Bids:
• Boise State (2.5M)
• Dayton ($5M)
• Wichita State ($6.9M)
• Cincinnati ($7.4M)
• San Diego State ($5.7M)
• Davidson (2.8M)
• BYU ($6.1M)

Spending and At Large Bid Conclusions:
• Based on the Final Four teams listed above and their budgets since 2009, men’s basketball budgets need to be in the $2.5M-$3M range at a minimum to have any chance.
• From 2015-2018, all teams outside the top six spending conferences who were awarded bids spent over $2.5M (Boise State at minimum, 2015.)
• All 23 bids outside these top six spending conferences came from AAC, A-10, MWC, MVC, WCC which are all within the top 12 spending conferences by average budgets in NCAA D-1.
• 22 of 23 at-large teams from 2015-2018 played a minimum of 6 non-conference home games versus D-1 opponents. (Boise State with only three home games versus D1 opponents in the 2014-15 season was the exception)
• The lowest ranked conference to receive multiple bids was the Mountain West Conference which was the #11 RPI conference with two at large bids (three total w/automatic bid) in 2015.
Survey Results:
This survey is based on responses from 39 men’s college basketball programs with budgets ranging from $4.1M to $1.5M. This survey includes multiple members from six different conferences.
Here are facts relating to revenue generated from guaranteed road games and the amount of money available to these same programs to buy their own home games:
• 27 of 39 teams report generating between $85K-$350K in away buy game revenue each season.
• 17 of 39 teams report having $80K-$500K in their budgets to buy home games of their own. The other 22 programs all have less than $25,000 which buys one or more non-D1 home games only.
Note: Most teams report individual buy game rates of $75K-$100K/game versus big spending opponents with average budgets of $9.0M.

The interesting results of this portion of the survey was the wide divide among these mid-level spenders. One of the top spending programs within the budget range of $4.1M-$1.4M, has $500,000 available to buy home games. Another lower level spending program within the range reported having to generate $450K by going on the road and being bought in the 2015-2016 season. That same team typically is required to generate $350K/season in road/buy game revenue for their school.
These budget and scheduling dynamics also create huge differences in scheduling strategies in each conference. When you look at top half team conference performance versus bottom half team conference performance the divide can be eye opening. The West Coast Conference is a stark example of how top half teams RPI average versus bottom half teams RPI average can drive different scheduling strategies. There is roughly a divide of 180 points between the top half of the WCC versus the bottom half teams of the WCC (example: Top half RPI average: 81, Bottom half RPI average 261). Many conferences have 120+ point divides in the RPI averages between their top half teams and bottom half teams. In other words, conferences face the challenge of how to deal with the have’s and have not’s even within their own conferences.

Gonzaga clearly pushed back on that dynamic and wanted less conference games to avoid playing lesser conference foes. Gonzaga simply wanted to avoid the computer metric hit they take when playing lesser conference teams that do not invest and do not perform at a level that allows Gonzaga to meet their ultimate goals to improve their post season resume. The WCC will now play only 16 conference games so Gonzaga ($8.9M budget) and a few other top half teams (BYU $7.0M budget and Saint Mary’s $3.46M budget) can theoretically schedule two more attractive non-conference games against resume building opponents instead of playing two games against bottom half conference foes.
Conference USA and the Sun Belt recently announced new in-conference scheduling formats that allow for late season games to pit their best performing teams against each other over the final four regular season games. This format is designed to avoid bottom half teams playing top half teams late in the season while generating more fan interest and more metric friendly games. Both conferences recognized there is no value for teams who are positioning themselves for better NCAA Tournament seeds or even a second bid to play lower half conference foes late in the season. This new and unique scheduling format has been met with universal intrigue and positive first impressions. Many conferences are watching these two trail blazing conferences who are clearly challenging the status quo.

All conferences and their members should be reviewing their individual and collective goals. If their goals are to improve their seed in the NCAA tournament and position their league for the possibility of two-bids then the minimum investment is between $2.5M-$3.0M/team. Conferences and their members must review how much revenue they must generate with away buy games and how much revenue they should invest in buying their own home games to position their teams accordingly. If you are being bought for multiple games but not investing in your own home game schedule you have no chance to reach those goals.

Lastly, teams and conferences must be creative. One question needs to be answered, “How is the status quo working for you?” That one question is a reality check and that one question can drive teams/conferences to new and innovative strategies moving forward.
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Re: College basketball costs and revenues

Post by speck » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:39 pm

Summed up, its all about money. No surprises there.
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